From Hidden Hurt to Healing: A True Story of Family Redemption

Behind every family is a story—and sometimes, a secret. In this special interview episode of The Voyage Cast, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Eddie Eccker sits down with the author of The Housekeeper’s Secret to unpack a deeply personal narrative of family trauma, silence, and redemption. Together, they explore how generational pain gets passed down, how forgiveness reshapes identity, and what it takes to interrupt cycles of emotional hurt. This conversation blends storytelling and therapeutic insight, inviting listeners to reflect on their own pasts and consider what it means to reclaim truth, healing, and hope in the face of legacy.

Whether you’ve struggled with your own family history or simply love a powerful redemption arc, this episode is a heartfelt invitation to sit with the uncomfortable—and discover what freedom might be waiting on the other side.

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Sandras Website: https://www.sandraschnakenburg.com/book

Transcript

0:00  
Eddie Ecker, welcome to another episode of the voyage cast, where we explore stories that shape us and provide help beyond the office. I'm your host. Eddie Ecker, and today I am privileged to have a conversation that challenge us, I think, to think deeply about resilience, connection and truth. Our guest is Sandra schnacker, author of The memoir The housekeeper, secret. But this is more than just another book. It is a deep look at family, identity and the courage it takes to uncover painful truths. Sandra's story intertwined with the life of Lee Metoyer, a housekeeper, a housekeeper who became much more. She became family the housekeeper. Secret is about the ties that transcend background and circumstances, about the ripple effects of love's quiet persistence, and about finding healing in the truth we'd rather not face So Sandy, I hope that does you justice, as I bring you to everybody on our podcast and get to know you a little bit. So why don't we start with that? Why don't you just tell us a little bit about who you are, and then we'll jump right into your story, because it is so good.

1:08  
Thank you so much, and thank you for that introduction that was beautifully written. Yeah, I am the daughter of Lillian and Robert krillick, who actually hired the housekeeper when I was three and a half, Lee, and so she really was a part of my upbringing. She was my second mom in every way. I've worked in the finance industry as an adult for 30 years, and when I came to try to fulfill a promise, Lee had asked me to write her story on her death bed. I left the finance world and started studying creative writing. And

1:49  
you left a financial career to study creative writing. That's a pretty big jump.

1:55  
Yeah, it was big deal. It was a big deal. I did that because, well, one that it just kind of felt right at the time with a boss that I wasn't really clicking with, and I felt like and my mom, the biggest part of it was my mom had passed away, and she was like, the best mother you could ever have. And I and at her funeral, we just talked about, like, all the things she was to us as a mother, and I started to think, you know, my kids are in seventh grade. I've been with them, you know, every waking moment outside of work, I was, I'm with them in a part, like team mom and all these different things. But I started thinking, I want to just take it easy, and when I just let the work go, I took it easy. It wasn't I didn't rush to study writing. What happened is my mom died, and I found these ashes in her closet. And that triggered the promise Lee's ashes were in my mom's closet, like they were stored there for 15 years since we had died. Yeah, and so when I we found them after we sold mom's house, I triggered it was like the inciting incident in writing. It triggered my promise I'd made to Lee on her deathbed to write her story. And it was a story I didn't know, so it sent me on an investigative journey of a lot of questions, and that's how the book came about.

3:14  
So that's really cool, because when you read the book there, there is that description of her telling you to write the story. And, you know, I don't want to give everything away in the book, obviously, because I want people to read it. It's a really moving story. But can you tell us a little bit about that moment when she's tell asking you

3:32  
absolutely she was on oxygen, kind of at the very end of her life, and she asked my she she had told my mom earlier that morning that she wants to see me today. And so I went downstairs, and she was in bed, and she sat up, you know, and I could hear her hissing oxygen, and she just took my hand and she goes, I just want to talk to you, Sandy, you know, about a few things. And that was, it was just giving me the chills talking about it, but she first, she said, I just wanted to tell you how much, how thankful I am of your mom, all the things she did for me. And that confused me right off the bat, because I was like, wait a minute, you worked for my mom and helped her all these years, and you were the best thing that ever happened to her, and you're thanking her. You know, understand it. So now I understand it, right? I found out why, you know, why she's thanking her, and where she came from and what happened to her. But that was the first thing that kind of threw me off. And then the second thing, the second question she asked was, you know, I never got to write that book. I always said I would write in the book that nobody would ever believe. And, you know, we used to, we used to tease her about it. She'd mentioned it all the time at the dinner table, joking, you know, I'm going to write a book one day, nobody will ever believe it. And we used to sit around and go, Holy, is that a threat or a promise, you know? And when is this book going to happen? And because it went on for years, this comment, so. She's at your deathbed, and she's like, you know, will you write that book? And I'm like, right, what's the story? What's your story? I'm like, she goes, you'll figure it out. What

5:10  
a cliffhanger, yeah. Can you write my story and go, go, figure out what the story is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's almost like a choose your own adventure sort of thing. Like, should you take that mantle? You're gonna have quite an adventure. And again, not to give it away, but this is quite an adventure that you went on.

5:26  
Listeners should know is that they she came to our house with a story that she had lost a husband and son in the automobile accident was tragic, and that she had no family. So she was wanted to have another family to help. It was the perfect situation, because my mom was looking for somebody who had no family. It was almost like a request for the maid maid agency. So she fit that request perfectly, but she came with a different birth date than her real birth date and a different name. So she actually reinvented her entire identity. She had the maid agency put her file under lock and key, so if anybody came to find her, they weren't allowed to be directed to our home. You know, we found this, of course, years later. That's

6:09  
wild, yeah, and

6:10  
so yeah, she wasn't even the person she said she was, but at the same time, she ended up being this most incredible person, you know, in our family.

6:19  
That's crazy that this lady shows up on your doorstep lying about who she really is, but literally changing the entire dynamic of your whole family for the good. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that that's a story that could really go wrong.

6:39  
Well, if we knew the truth, she probably would have not gotten hired, you know,

6:43  
right, right? I mean, what a weird kind of series of events, I mean. And it makes you know again, when you listen or read the story, it makes so much more sense why all of these things played out the way they did. And it, it's stunningly beautiful and tragic and heart wrenching. And when I read it, I was infuriated and moved deeply at various points just listening to it and again, like I want so bad, to give so much away, because it's so interesting to talk about, but I really want people to read the story when you were uncovering all of this stuff. Can you tell us a little bit about kind of those, like, Aha moments, or those big, like, oh my gosh, moments, without giving too much away, but can you, can you share with us the impact it had on you? Because I mentioned it's an adventure. We'll go back through this story a little bit. But this is so interesting to me that you took up this mantle, you took up this adventure and you wrote this story like, what were the moments that struck you? Wow.

7:47  
Well, the discovery of Lee's truth was a shocking, horrendous discovery, and our family were like, like, paralyzed. We had lived with Lee for 30 years. We loved her like our own mother, we and what we learned was just every it had, we had to unlearn what we had believed for so many years in order to make space for what was coming and what we're hearing. And that took, it just took a long time to process and then really ask the question, Why? Why? Why? So, I think one of the things that I would, I would just say, without giving any spoiler alert, big spoil alert, but just a small one, would be, you know, she had these two pictures on her mirror all 30 years, and they were the husband and son that died in the tragic car accident, and she, she called the husband Pierre. I mean, sorry, the son Pierre. And we, you know, I was looking for their burial spots for to try to put Lee's ashes with them. And then, lo and behold, there was no dead son and there was no husband, right? This is not giving a spoiler. You learned that early, but it's also set me off into a trajectory to find out why she told us that story, and then to find out who her family is and what we can find out from them. And that was quite a serendipitous how we found her background and her family and all the different things that happened was almost like from heaven. She was dropping bread crumbs, you know, because it was, it was right when I'd get at the brink of quitting the whole thing, something came down from nowhere, right, like Vicky in the dog park,

9:31  
yeah? But, you know, it's, it's interesting though, because she picked the right person, as you describe in your story. I mean, you were, as a little girl, you were incredibly curious, and you were always kind of in her space, trying to ask her questions and figure out, like, Who is this woman? And she really picked the right person to say, Hey, can you write my story? Because you're the one insatiable enough to, you know, do it. Yeah, she

9:57  
finally, I finally be able to figure out the the. Answers to the my own questions that I had asked her for so many years, right? But I also, I think she also picked me because of the perseverance of getting through a very, very tragic car accident myself when I was 13, she helped me through that process, wherever, where I had a traumatic brain injury, and she identified with me, and now I know why. You know, she ended up too and so she knew exactly what I needed. My parents had no clue. They had no clue why. I mean, other than, don't worry, she's damaged goods. The car hit her, going 100 she's not going to be the same ever. You know, it was kind of a write off. But Lee saw that, saw that my mind was going inside and I couldn't communicate things. She worked on everything from reading to spelling to, you know, communication puzzles were a big part of our life, as you know, and she gave me the biggest puzzle of my life. Yeah,

10:51  
she really did. I mean, I remember in part of the story that she would have you sit down and do those puzzles with her. And when I was listening to it, you know, I noticed that. But then as I got later on in the story, it looking back, I'm like, oh, okay, this is why we're doing puzzles. This is why we're doing these things. And she it really is quite incredible. Again, this story, one of the things that kind of shook me about the story, a little bit, is how complex it was, how many layers there were. You know, you have you as a child, you have your family, you have issues with your dad, you have Lee showing up. You have your mom and Lee's connection. You have Lee's history, and you have all that unfolds. There are so many layers to that, and then you have things all the way back in American history that you're addressing too that's like, whoa. This story doesn't quit.

11:50  
Yeah, yeah. It makes it makes you really think. And most readers gravitate to areas that they're most interested in, too, that they're dealing with in their own family, because there's so many issues in the book, so many mental issues and different things, but the story that I did get a gold award, my first award, and it was in the all, there was like 30 judges, and they had written all these things, and they said exactly what you just said. They said the layers of complexity. And even in my writing classes, they said memoirs, you know, they have a hard time writing about one family and one story. And I have multiple layers here with multiple families to get approval and multiple you know, and then the timeline was all over the place, so I had to compress time, which is what you do in memoir and and make it work. Right? Absolutely.

12:37  
So one of the things we were talking about in our kind of pre meeting, and then earlier before we started, is, again, there's so many layers of this story, but one of the layers that I find really interesting is how you dealt with your father. He is kind of a pivotal piece to, let's say, the first half, almost of your story, in some sense, and I'd like you to share a little bit about, kind of, what his deal was, who he was, and then also, kind of, I mean, he became this big thing in your community, and he was a big part of your family, in a way that most of us don't understand and could never Live absolutely

13:20  
well. Just a little, you know, background, I was my parents were married 10 years when I was born, so and we had just moved into this huge house in Barrington, so we were already wealthy when I was born, which is interesting, because I didn't know dad before, you know, when he didn't have anything, but he was a force to be reckoned with. He would walk in a room and the whole energy would change. He was extremely handsome, and he had a genius about him. He was quick witted, and he doesn't he had very little patience, you know, for the small talk, if you will, or anything small he wanted, he wanted to just get to the bottom line of everything, and he was driven by money. He was driven by power and power over people. So in many ways, he has the symptoms of narcissism. When I was growing up, you know, he loved his family dearly. He was so proud, but we often felt like wall flowers. You know, he'd take us to these big events, made sure we were all pretty and good, but don't, don't speak. Just smile. Smile for the camera. Smile for the you know, everybody. It was not like he wanted us to have a part of anything he wanted to be. He wanted just to show us off, if you will. And after a while, you know, we had his, you know, we all have, all my siblings are smart. We all have a certain genius about us, but it's all different, right? Like siblings and but we all started thinking for ourself and just saying, like, Hey, I have something to say here. Everywhere anyway. He was somebody who intimidated all of us greatly and also minimized our value. We had a lot of self worth issues growing up. He used the word stupid idiot. God damn this goddamn that was, excuse me for the podcast. But this was his the way he started sentences.

15:19  
What struck me, actually, when I was reading that, is that, you know, when I'm working with people clinically as a therapist, I observe this and I educate around this, is that part of a woman's identity as she develops and grows is predicated on her father's value of her yes, and so it's very difficult for women when they grow up and develop to know that they're good enough and to hold within them that sense of good enoughness, because they're so maybe beat down by their dads or disregarded or dismissed or never good enough in his eyes. And then they just keep trying to earn it, keep trying to earn it, keep trying to earn it, and it's always shut down. Does that resonate?

16:04  
Oh yes, I, I was at his side when he died, and I just felt that, that feeling waiting for him to approve of me still. And that feeling came, and it came to my mind like he still never approved of me. And you know, it was just the way he was, though he never wanted to give me the upper even, even when I did have something like to really offer the situation, he made sure to belittle me in the midst of the contribution in one way or another. So subconsciously, I think I'm going to speak for myself, because I can't speak for the rest of my siblings, but I think we're all in the same boat. But you know, subconsciously, you know, I had questioned my worthiness on everything, like, Am I worthy of this or that? But I knew I was bright. I just didn't I feel, I felt like I had to convince the world of that because I've been told otherwise. It lives in me. It lives in me like a like a challenge constantly, you know, to overcome in all the projects I do. Okay? I can show you, I can show you that I could do this, you know, yeah,

17:08  
you always had to prove something. Yeah, I've noticed that too. And again, clinically speaking, that when I'm working with people, sometimes they become these overachievers in some kind of way or another, which is fine to achieve good things and to push yourself, but sometimes the motivation can be a bit twisted around, so that even when we do achieve it, we're never really satisfied with the achievement itself.

17:30  
Yeah, I think I went through that for years, because I went and got my MBA, and I kept doing better at work, and my finance career took off, and but I really felt like my inner healing happened when I was writing the book. That's when I really connected to my like, self, love and like, give myself some grace. I have been through a lot, and I, you know, I'm hearing my father's voice. You can't do this. You're not good enough. But then it was like, No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna rewrite those records. And I started trans dental meditation. I just started positive affirmations. I would constantly keep my vibration up, whether it be music or whatever it was, just staying in the light of all all my days. And then it doesn't that. Then it didn't haunt me anymore. And I felt like I just allowed it to just, you know, not not affect me, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this book done. It's gonna be great, kind of thing. I just kept telling myself, it's gonna work, you know, well, I think,

18:30  
I think that's a true thing. I ask a lot of people to tell their stories. Now, some of them may or may never write them, but I get to hear, I get privileged not only to hear your story, Sandra, and read your book. But I get that all the time in my office, and I get to hear people's stories, and sometimes I come across come across people who I'm like, Man, you need to write this story. And in fact, to that point, I've actually talked to a few of them since I've listened to your book, I'm like, hey. Like, maybe listen to this. It may not be a one to one comparative, but understand that your story does matter. It does make impacts. And I think what you're sharing now is so important too, that when you share those stories, it actually changes you, yes, and that's actually one of the premises, by the way, of trauma therapy, is that when you when you face your story, and you go through it, you start desensitizing to it as you're reprocessing. And it's kind of the similar premise, in a narrative sense, to what you do in like an EMDR trauma therapy or something. But it's so cool. I mean, that's that was actually one of the questions I had, is, kind of, what would have been the impact, or what was the impact of you on you specifically, just writing the story, I can tell you one thing like, and I'm definitely not giving this away, because I want people to read this part for sure, is at the end. I mean, holy crap, the impact of somebody's story on a community was was incredible. It was really huge. Yeah, it was, it was massive. But we're. There moments like I know, in the story, you talk about moments and you kind of barred through, and I know for the sake of, like, writing a memoir, writing a story, sort of condensing it down a little bit. But were there moments when you're pursuing this story, looking back into your past, looking back into your own kind of traumas, whether it was physical or emotional with your family or looking forward into Lee's experience and her story. Were there moments where you're like, I don't know if I can face this anymore.

20:32  
Oh yes. Well, let I'll back up to this. Is that when I first thought I was writing Lee's story, I really just thought I was going to write Lee's story, and nothing about me. So after taking more creative writing classes and learning memoir and how important memoir is to be vulnerable and be true to your story, I and then one of my instructors said, you know, this is not a memoir. If you're writing about somebody else's life and you can't even like, where are you in this? Well, I'm a huge part of Lee's life. I could write myself in. There I go. You need to write all the things you've been through. And I got I that was a shocker. So I had to start digesting these big, pivotal moments in my life that that had major shifts of difficult times, and what I went through, and where Lee was in that, and it was, I, you the first diversions were like a like, throwing up on the page, literally, like it was, like, emotional dump and, you know? But that was part of the healing. So all the beginning and and listeners should know if they, if they do, write their story, this is the healthy part of it. It's the part that you have to do to get to the real story, to what it how it serves the world, because you actually heal that. And then when you're when you actually see the story as a whole, and you can reflect upon it in the writing, then it really says you're healed. You're over it. This is my story. I present it to the world now.

22:04  
Yeah, that's that sounds about right? I think when I do advise people to write their stories or even journal about it, you know, a lot of times they're like, Well, I don't know what to write, I don't know how to write it. I don't know what to say. I'm like, literally anything. Just start spewing it out. It doesn't have to be organized. It doesn't have to make any sense. You just write it out, you know, and then over time, now you start wrestling. I imagine this is part of your process. You probably started wrestling with it to then organize the story and the timeline and like, how things made sense. And I bet it was probably a little bit shocking too, to think about after you wrote it. Like, wow, this was a lot, like we, we as a family, went through a lot, and one of the things that you and I talked about in our kind of pre interview discussion was how you come from this big, wealthy family, but yet there's all this tragedy that's occurring inside of it, all this hardship, this father that's impossible to please and And when you're telling a story and you're facing those things, I imagine you're you're have to face all those things. And maybe, maybe glossed over some of it too, maybe some of the charmed life was kind of fogging your vision. I don't know you tell me, but I can imagine sometimes coming from wealth, or maybe what people might think that when you come from wealth, everything's fine, but I don't know. Give me your thoughts on that,

23:21  
yeah, I Well, my reflection on the book about that is that we were the family, like, kind of in The Glass Castle, where everything looked great on the outside, but we were all broken on the inside. And then when Lee shows up, she on the outside, had all these, you know, disfigurement and different things that didn't and she was coming to serve us. She was needing a job. She was living in a homeless shelter that we didn't know at that day, but we eventually knew, and she was the one together on the inside. So the chaos that we had in our house, the yelling and screaming all the time, the confusion, she brought peace contentment, and she brought this grounding to all of us. And the beautiful thing is, my mom was a very grounded person until my dad started, you know, affecting her from several years of abuse. She started to lose her way, but Lee started to bring her back and get her grounded again, through wisdom and through guidance that what's what's really real and what's not real? The things he was saying wasn't real, that he she wasn't stupid, she wasn't this and that, so all these,

24:27  
so I'm sorry. So you were saying that

24:31  
one of the key parts for your mom was that when Lee showed up, it's almost like she gave her strength back, because your dad had beaten your mom down so much emotionally and sort of stripped away a lot of her value and worth.

24:44  
Yes, yes, Lee. Lee was my Lee was a great strength to my mom. She helped, helped her through her darkest days. And isn't

24:54  
that so wild that you have this woman coming in from apparently nothing, right? I. And she's coming into everything yes and, and she's the thing that makes the biggest difference, yes, in this massive wealth, right? Like she's the change agent. Truly, it wasn't all the trips or fun things or exploring of the world, it was this woman coming in and then changing your life. Yeah,

25:21  
she valued us as human beings and really affect like affectionately loved us and cared enough to teach us things and with patience and kindness, where my dad expected us to know everything, like as if we were born with a whole bunch of knowledge he didn't, he didn't teach us anything. We watched him. We saw how he treated people, which wasn't impressive, but he, he didn't teach us, like, you know, different things. I think there's a scene in the book about that, you know, my dad asked me to get a wrench. I'm like, What's a wrench? Well, he just went ballistic, right and right. And I remember Lee just spending time and realizing, like, nobody's teaching these kids anything. Wonder why their dad is always yelling them for being stupid. They don't have this general common knowledge. I mean, I was only like, five. I mean, you don't sit there and study tools when you're that age, because you're not really thinking you're going to be working on the property like we did. But he was a hard, he was hard, like, he, this is, this isn't in the book, but he taught me how to swim, but he just, he just hung me from my feet, from the high dive when I was very little, and dropped me. And he said, You're either going to get to the side or you're not, yeah.

26:34  
I mean, I guess death or living is always a good motivator, yeah.

26:38  
I mean, so, you know, we look like, Oh, we're so rich. We have a pool. But it was like, it was tough learning how to swim. And then we were like, we went on my first ski trip ever. It was just in, you know, I think it was in Playboy Club in Wisconsin. First time I ever skied. I was five, and I didn't know anything about he never taught me how to even even try to even go out on bunny hills. He took me up at the highest point, and he said, Just follow me and do what I say. And that that's not in the book either, but I went right into a tree, and I broke my leg. He just stood over me and he yelled. He yelled for like, constantly, until the paramedics got there. And so you know, if you're her father, you need to stop yelling at her. She's very injured, like I was, my whole leg was broken half, and I was like, he just never taught me how to, like, how to do those things. But yes, we're punished for not doing them, right? That's

27:29  
so wild, you know? It actually reminds me there's this. So my dad was a private pilot growing up, and it reminds me of this situation where I'm, I'm little, I'm probably, I don't know, 10 or something, and he's trying to teach me how to fly his plane, which was very cool, but I couldn't see over the dash. And he's trying to give me instructions on, like, stuff out here that I need to be aware of. And I'm like, trying to tell him, like, I cannot see over the dash. He's like, yelling at me at a certain point because I'm not attending to the things that he wants me to attend to. And then eventually I'm like, sobbing and like, I can't see over the test, dude. And he's like, wait, what? And he because he just had no perspective. And then, you know, a little bit different story, I mean, but he was actually impressed at that point. He's like, wow, you're doing a great job flying by instruments. But it's amazing. You know, our parents, sometimes they just don't have that awareness. They only, and especially, sounds like your dad was maybe worse in a sense that he he really couldn't see past his nose. No,

28:32  
he couldn't. He self absorbed in his world, yeah, and I asked a lot of questions to him, and so I was annoying from a very young age. Like, okay, what happened at work today? And what did you do? Who did you do? Who did you talk to? And How did everything go? And he would just ballistic, you know, because he didn't want to share what was happening with him. And pro, I don't know exactly why, but he was very secretive about his life,

28:56  
yeah, so his life is a little bit, I mean, he is a little bit of a mystery, in some sense, in the in the story, obviously, had to condense a lot down, and it was mainly, I think you even said it in our last meeting, is it was kind of a braiding together of your story with Lee's, and then you brought in all these other elements. But your dad is kind of this, this entity in and of itself, like what happened to him that made him so dysfunctional, so unaware,

29:23  
so dysfunction, so functionally dysfunctional, because he functioned in a business way, in so harshly, but, but he, he got results, but he was so dysfunctional in a personal way, he he didn't know how to show love or affection. And I and what happened to him, I think, is he was born. He was raised in poverty. He was the oldest of two children. His youngest sister was nine years younger. His dad was very abusive. He had inherited a bar from his father, and he ended up being his best customer, and he had a drink. Problem, among other and womanizer problem. Yeah, he was a handsome guy, um, but my grandma, you know, felt like she got, she won the jackpot marrying him. But, you know, he was abusive from the very beginning, so they ended up staying together for, like, I think it was 10 years, but they finally had to take the kids out of the house and put put them in another family, because the the kids were so abused there, and my dad took the brunt of it, because he was, like, nine years old when his little sister was born. So she was removed before she even, you know, had a lot of abuse. And I think my dad became the man of the house at nine. So he was going to school, and he couldn't figure out why he was going to school, because school had was, like, it was silly to him. So he left school at 16, never even got a high school degree. And he thought, Well, I'm just going to go out and work, because if I work, I'm going to get myself out of this, you know, situation,

30:51  
yeah, out of the poverty, yeah. I think

30:54  
he always thought money cures all, yeah. But he never, he never equated that money doesn't buy love. You know, money doesn't make you happy. You know, money is just a transactional thing, and it's just, it's sad, but all of us kids were restricted from wealth. Really, we were in the house, but I we all had to lie about our age and go to work at a young age because dad refused to give my mom enough money to even let us buy clothes or do do anything. So I was 14, and I went to work at McDonald's my first job. And, you know, until they figured out my age, I was there, but it was so nice to make and my sisters did the same thing. They all were looked really much older at a young age. So we all tried to, you know, we're all hard workers, and we've all made a lot of money because we did the same thing. We wanted to get out of the situation where we couldn't buy our own thing, or we couldn't even have, you know, create our own identity, because there was nothing there we were, like the rich poor people, actually,

31:53  
wow. Yeah. I mean, that's what it sounds like. Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. I mean, that that is kind of unique to your story that I don't think that's really illustrated well in the in the book. I mean, obviously lots condensed, but one of the things I think about a lot when I'm working with people is when you're dealing with somebody who's kind of in that narcissistic category, like your dad would probably be. Usually, people aren't that way for nothing. And it sounds like, you know, through his childhood abuse, taking the brunt of everything, I mean, he had to shut off emotionally. He did. There's no chance you can't be vulnerable. There's no vulnerability. It's sort of, you know, kill or be killed, in some sense. And when you grow up that way, for some it's very difficult to come back out of that thinking, and then we end up treating people the same way, and we really don't actually learn how to relate in an effective or loving capacity. And so it makes actually a lot of sense to me that he would think in terms of money and things, and even if he's womenizing, right thinking of women, because he's looking for those superficial things exactly, because that's, that's what he understood. I mean, that was the only thing that kind of rescued him from his childhood. Yes, for him, but then it ended up, you know, that transgenerational cycle of abuse ended up just filtering back into you guys, which is really unfortunate. So I'm in one hand, I'm kind of like, you know, I'm not, I'm sympathetic to his childhood and sad that you guys had to deal with the pains and sorrows that he gave you, because he never could get better. He couldn't see it.

33:33  
Yeah, I wish he had gotten an education. I really wish he had finished high school and gone to college, because I think he had such a brilliant mind, he would have been anything he wanted to be, and he would have also understood patients, people, you know, conversations, taking more time. But he was very impatient man that he never was able to get over himself enough to care about somebody else. Yeah, he was so self absorbed right into proving to the world that he was, you know, successful. And all these toys and all these things he's kept accumulating ended up being all for him, you know. And we started thinking about like, well, it's all we want is to have a conversation with our dad, or have him know how we did school on the track meet or this or that, or just have him ask us something about our day, you know, show any

34:24  
kind of interest, any kind of interest, yeah, and that, you know, it's, it's a really sad thing, like, as much as I can understand His disposition, to a degree, going back to what we said earlier about what a young girl needs to become, you know, a very healthy woman is to have a father who can pursue her and to love her, for her to just to get to know her. That doesn't, of course, mean without rules, boundaries and structures, but you know it certainly means that you have to take the time, because if you don't, then you know you and a lot of your siblings probably grew up very lost and confused, like are we even? And loved. And then that's where, in some interesting sense, like Lee, comes in. And though she's another woman in the home, she becomes almost a surrogate parent for you guys, or she does become a surrogate parent to you guys. She becomes family, but she almost takes place of, not in the same way, but she gives you some kind of supplement to dad. She does,

35:20  
yeah, and it's interesting, because the hierarchy was like, Dad was the, you know, of course, the man of the house, and the the head of the household, and he was the one supporting everything. And Lee, technically, being a servant to the house was kind of like lower on the, you know, totem pole. And we, we never thought of it like that. But you know how God uses the least of them, right? So she totally came in and just broke the broke it all open, and she did so much in such a way that it heal. Helped her heal too. Having this family to help helped her get out of her situation, whatever what you know, the baggage she was trying to hide, she was just fully focused on our healing now no longer herself.

36:04  
Yeah, that's, it's, it's pretty incredible the difference that she made. And again, I'm not going to give too much away here, but this book really is powerful for people who've been through a slew of things in their life, abuse, addictions, all kinds of things. What would you say is like a word of encouragement or inspiration, you know, maybe even based on this story, or just based on your experience, because what I see in this story is specifically about Lee, is a woman who never gave up, right? Like, I don't even I'm impressed. I don't know how she did it. It to me, it's a miracle that she made it where she did with your family. And for some they may think of, well, like what a housekeeper is, a miracle that she made it that far. It's like, No, that was heroic, that she made it that far and could do what she did with you guys as a family. So, I mean, I'm just kind of curious your thoughts on kind of that surviving spirit, going through so much, pushing so hard.

37:16  
Yes, well, you know her, her backstory that we discovered is, like I said, pretty horrendous. And if we had known it, she probably would have gotten hired, because she would have been a high risk in the family. What she had been through was horrific and so but the fact is, she survived when many people didn't, and she got through it. But even even with that, she made a choice to live and to give back to other people like she made a choice. And Victor Frankel talks about this in his book, meaning of life. Yeah, you know there were about Holocaust survivors and how people, when they get out of that, losing everything, your family, your children, your, you know, manuscript, you you come back, and then you end up giving so much more to the world and being like a hero in many respects. And I think that her God was in the center of her life. As a child, she told me she went to church every day of her life. Her whole Metoyer family were very Catholic. They were all full of priests and various high level community people, and they had a high moral standing, but she must have had that seat in her that knew that she was created for more than just what she had endured, because she kept fighting and persevering and trying and even going for her This job to get to be a maid, and she she didn't want to stay with our house. She saw, she took one look at the house and this big family and six dogs and everything, and she was just like she was. She even told us many years, like over, over the years, she goes, I was absolutely not going to stay with your family. After I walked in that door, it was way too much. It was like, you know, somebody who had gone through and have has absolutely nothing and then be a part of that. It was overwhelming. This kids around. She goes, I she only gave us two weeks every time she came. And then she go back to what she said was her apartment, which was the YMCA, a homeless shelter. Oh, wow. Three years she did this, we didn't know it was the shelter. Finally, my mom called because she was trying to convince her to stay. She's like, we're all attached. Now, there's muggings that are happening in Chicago, and we thought, mom started to think, What if something happened to Lee? We're so attached. We need her now, the kids need her. So she convinced her or invited her. Her mom and dad had a talk, and she ended up not giving the big yes right away at all. She waited, she slept on it. She wasn't desperate, even though she had nothing, but my dad had built her out a whole room. It was all you know for her, and it was she. We she had her space like nobody would ever bother her, and she was very happy there, and when she finally said, Yes, it was a big day for her, but she never left our family spend the rest of her life

40:13  
with us. Yeah, that's an interesting thought that your dad

40:17  
encouraged you guys to pursue having her stay, yeah, this self absorbed narcissist

40:27  
is being loving,

40:30  
yeah, and it's, you know, you have to think of it like, how did that help him? Well, if he had somebody there at home helping mom all the time, he didn't have to rush home from work. So he was able to add to his womanizer life and all whatever he did and work late, not have to be, not have to, you know, there was Lee there with mom, and she was helping pick all the pieces up. And then we, you know, they ran a household. They ran the whole household. So

40:58  
it was kind of a clever trick, wasn't it? I mean, yeah, he would present as loving and caring so that he could then go do whatever he wanted to do, yes on the back end. And he became

41:08  
kind of intolerable when he was home. So there were times we just kind of hoped he didn't come home. It got to that point because the energy changed so much. We were all such a close family, and we'd laugh and we had, we made the best of everything, like and Lee brought the Chicago Cubs spirit in, and we just had this joy. And then dad would come home and it would be like everything would go silent, and we were all on eggshells. You know, that's wild. Yeah, it's pretty wild. So

41:37  
I have a sense about this, but I'm curious your thoughts, and I have a sense about it, because I've actually gone through the whole story, and I listened all the way to the end and but if Lee were alive today and actually got to see the story unfold, what do you think? I

41:57  
think she would have been really proud. Yeah, I really do. I think, you know, and I think it was meant to be told. I think she knew that, you know, after she she left this, you know, planet, because I think that she didn't want to have to explain a lot of the in between the lines of what happened to her, okay, like, you know, there were so many things that happened that that would have been hard to talk about, even if I had interviewed her, if I knew in this way, I can tell the story in this magnificent way of who she was in our family and and then what happened to her before she came to our family. It's sort of like unveils this incredible person that survived this ordeal, and then the the unity of, you know, everything comes together. So it was, it was huge. And I, I really believe that it happened exactly the way it was supposed to happen, in the exact timing of after my mom's death, because my mom didn't know Lee's truth either, and I believe Lee didn't want her to know, and that's why, just with zenly, right? When she died, my mom died, we found Lee's ashes, which set us in motion.

43:12  
Yeah, that would be a weird kind of experience to go and show up when your mom passes, and then find Lee's ashes. Yeah, I was thinking about that whole experience and and then how everything unfolded after that, that would be very complex emotionally, yeah, to find all those things.

43:29  
Well, what was complex is to figure out the truth, right? I think it did seem complex at the beginning, because I never saw a story in it. I was like, What's the story? I'm gonna go find their burial spots and put her ashes there the end. You know, there really isn't an arc. There was no climax. There was nothing like we just had no real knowing of who she was, still and then when we discovered it, it was, it became. And what's interesting is, I had a big book event in my hometown, Barrington, and a lot of people, my siblings, you know, a lot of their friends and their kids friends, they knew Lee. So the having people all come that knew Lee and loved her, and used to come to our house just to sit and watch the game with her. She was a Chicago fan fanatic, you know. And they would just come because they loved they loved that calmness and that contentment that we were drawn to,

44:23  
yeah, yeah. She provided an energy that was really contrasting to your dad, yeah, and the chaos of the home. She helped bring so much more order, not just for you kids, but for your mom. She did as well, which is pretty amazing. Yeah. So I mentioned in the beginning, partly, that I do have clients that I always tell to tell their story. I'm like, Hey, you got to write this story. It's an amazing it's tragic, but it's an amazing story. And given where you're at today, like this could be really helpful, and that's what I feel with your story. I think it's super helpful. But what would you say is, like, some good advice? Advice for somebody who's going to go on that journey to tell the story like is, there are the things you kind of learned, or key points that you picked up along the way that would be really useful for maybe an inspiring author. I mean, this is your first book, right? And so this is quite an undertaking for you, which is impressive, by the way. Thank you. But what would you say is something that you would you would advise,

45:23  
oh, I would advise to take. This is such a huge question. And I love this question, actually, because, yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. And I wish I had some advice myself, like, I Googled how to write a book, I'll be honest. And then I bought one book called The plot whisper, and I thought that was going to be the only book I would need. And it basically taught me how my brain works. When I understand if I'm strong in my left or right brain and under then I would understand how to plot a book, like how to outline a book. So you either a plotter, which is an outline and all organized like an analytical mind or a Prancer, which is intuitively, you know, sit down and the spirit and intuitive intuition comes, and you just write whatever you write at the moment. So I was, I'm an ambidextrous so I was both. And so I was like, Okay, now I've got a challenge. And then from that, I just realized that the the learning to write when you have a story and you don't have the skill, that's that's an interesting match, because I a lot of people have that they have a story but they don't have the skill, but a lot of people have the skill but don't know their story yet. Well, a lot of people in my classes were like, I want to write a book, but I don't know what to write about, but they're really good writers. Okay, so I had, you know, so I had this story, and it was so enriching, and I thought, well, I needed to get this right. So I started taking, you know, creative writing at Rice University, and then getting in writing groups, going to writing conferences, and learning about the best writing books to read and study. And actually, I get a little OCD, but I ended up taking, like, two to three years off on this whole endeavor, and just immersed myself in learning how to write and reading writing books and memoir. And I have so many memoir and I, you know, tabbed them all. There's all these little tabs and everything. My books are just like they were my Bible. I mean, for every day, I'd wake up and I'm like, here I go again. I'm gonna learn something new. And it was in a lot of the books I was I learned about was there in the back of my book. So a list of back there, and a lot of coaches were back there too. Like, I got a writing coach because I was like, how do you find time to write when you have a life? Yeah, no kidding, huh? And your life never stops. Like, there's always taxes are due. You know, kids need to be picked up, and there's just this stuff that just keeps happening. So then I realized, you know, I needed to figure out how to do that, and I started to value this is, this is part of being, you know, value in your own time. I started making an appointment with myself, slotting out myself on the calendar, and said, This is an appointment with myself. I'm turning off my phone and I'm gonna write. And I'd experiment with writing and do a lot of different things. And started, you know, submitting things to be published. And that's

48:05  
an interesting thought that you mentioned there, the idea of valuing your time by scheduling it. Yeah, you know, sometimes I think we value our time by just having nothing in it, and so then we can do whatever we want in those moments, because I value my time. Yeah, but really what you're saying like, if you want to pursue the goals, if you want to pursue those dreams, you have to value and schedule your time very thoughtfully and deliberately. I heard it once said that, you know you never can create time. You have to steal it. You have to steal anything and give it to another. It

48:36  
was like when I was learning to meditate, which is the hardest thing ever for me. I was like, I never could sit down and meditate because I never found the time. And then I realized I had to book myself to meditate. I have to book my, you know, I slot it in and say, this is the time I'm going to do that, even if it doesn't work, even if it's not like working, I'm going to just do it. And then eventually it became a habit. So you build a habit, and it's beautiful, because then all of a sudden it becomes like this place where you go to have to build strength to do the next thing you're going to do. And I did also read, nothing of value is created without full commitment and sacrifice. Like you have to sacrifice something you commit to. Like for me to commit to finishing the book, I had to give up, like, time with my friends. You know, when I was on a roll, I'm not doing anything, and COVID happened, and that helped me. You know, sure,

49:31  
good time to start writing. Yeah, I like that, that you always have to sacrifice something to then prioritize these dreams and goals. And I would say that anybody who's ever had a family knows that just broadly in their life, if you have children, you know that you can't just pursue x and you have to do Y. There's always something kind of being juggled. But I think one of the messages that I'm getting glad and clear is you have to schedule it, because if you don't, it just won't happen. Yeah, that's right. And it sounds like, I mean, part of this too, was not just a commitment, but also, I think, I don't know you correct me here, but this is an inclination that I have that once the adventure started, like, maybe once the ashes were found, let's say that was kind of that it's like the hidden treasure map, yeah, it's like, this spark ignites, like, oh, what's Well, hold on what's next. Well, hold on what's next. Well, what? Wait a minute, what's this about? I mean, that for me, would be so curious, and I would be grabbing a hold of that. That seems like kind of an adventure. So I don't know, what are your thoughts?

50:32  
Yeah, no, it became like a calling, like, because if you think about it, like it kind of started the day she walked in our house. I was three and a half, and this we had, and all of a sudden, it's almost like all these little things that happened when I was growing up started coming back to me, all my curiosity about her family, about her teeth, about her walk, about all these things, then all these chores she was giving me was to help me. Everything was sort of playing into each each other, like knowing each other without knowing each other right? Knew I had such a high intuition about her, and I didn't feel like something was off, that she had told us about her, and I'd stare at those pictures on her mirror and like that. You know, that's really odd. And even the the guy she said was her husband, he looked like he's in a 19, you know, 10 flight uniform, and he It looks like she, I don't even and I asked her, I asked her his name, and she would never give it to me. It was just like, it was like, right away, I was in trouble. Don't ask any more questions. Let's get back to work. And so I never really, I think it was just because it was all a cover up, you know, and she didn't want to lie, so she would just try to avoid my questions, but,

51:44  
but then she ended up in your home with you, this insatiable young lady who is kind of being breadcrumbed from the beginning of the story. You know, of like just so curious, always asking the questions. I mean, she couldn't have asked for a better home to land into than one with your family. It seems like, actually, and it sounds like you guys couldn't have asked for a better housekeeper and second mother, true, right? She's really mutual, because you know her trauma history, which you end up discovering later, allowed her actually to be the exact right kind of person for your family, right?

52:26  
Her, her experiences made her who she was for our family. Everything she went through prepared her, and then even she even manifested the book, always talking about this book, always talking about the story, and she would just, and I felt like that. You know, we talk about manifestation today, like it's like when you think about something that happens, but she planted that seed so many years ago, and now this book is in the world. So even though she's then gone 30 years, this year or last year was last December, and she it's it's now real. And she managed that so long ago, even though I tried to, you know, I quit a few, many times, but there was just this gnawing thing about I couldn't sleep at night, and I'd be pacing the wall, you know, this the floor, and I, my husband, would say, just finish the book. Well, yeah, like, I know, living please, keeping me up, she's like, saying I can't quit.

53:24  
Well, she never did. I mean, that's I have to say. Like, Lee's life, in some real respect, is a high bar to live up to, given the level of perseverance she must have endured and grit she must have had just to get through and make it like it's again. I hope people are curious about this, because I hope they get the story, and I hope they I hope they get the book and read the story, because it's really, it's really quite an adventure, and you almost don't know that it's an adventure until you sort of get over the hump of the second half. It's sort of like teasing you along a little bit until you get to that second half of the story. So Sandy, what's next for you with this story? Well,

54:07  
I've been obviously doing podcasts and articles are being done right now for the story. And what I'm hoping is that, you know, maybe it could be like a Netflix series or some kind of, you know, show that really, I think it's a film maker's candy store, to be honest. There's so many subjects in here that would make a great film. It's

54:27  
funny, because I was thinking about this, like, I'm a very visual person, so as I'm listening to the story, I'm imagining kind of how it's playing out. Yes, and I'm like, this would be an incredible movie. It would be. But my, my question was, is, like, there's a lot here, like it's not like it's it's so dense in terms of, like, it's war and peace. It's not that long, right? But the content is so rich. Yeah, you know, I'm not a screenplay writer. I don't know what that means. I don't know how to do. That. But I can't imagine what they would do to make this into a movie like, I almost want to say, like, they'd have to be very careful not to disrespect the story, because you've already condensed a lot, yeah, into this to make it happen. And then, you know, for two or three hour movie, like, they'd have to condense even more. But how would you make that happen? Because this story is so rich and there's so many angles. You could go mental health, you could go

55:27  
abuse. You could go domestic violence. You could go

55:32  
American history.

55:35  
You could go like rags to riches, and then riches to rags, like there's so many angles from an emotional or point you can go existential and spiritual. I mean, God is sort of in the story, almost through the whole way, in some real sense. Well, I always

55:50  
thought. I always thought a filmmaker has, they get the film rights. You know, they get the film rights to the liberty to do, to fill in all the blanks. And as as a memoir writer, you have to only write the truth. I only wrote what is true and what I knew right in her uncovering. So if you look at what, what really could have happened in her past, I mean you that whole mantino was something that could just, just be this incredible story, because it was so it was such a phenomenon back then, that place was and it was that alone is a filmmakers and, you know, and there's this whole Mary Poppins aspect, where she comes into a family as sweet and, you know, and everything looks so perfect and cheer. She is this humble lady. And then, you know, the Chicago Cubs is her little song and dance, but it's, it's got this beautiful spirit about it, yeah, magic to it. There can be a flashbacks that they could, you know, she could have flashbacks during her time with us that I don't have in the story, because that's not how it you know, we didn't know, right? But there's lots of ways they could do it. I do think that you're right. It's so full of content. That's why I think it's a filmmakers candy store. I really do stories

57:06  
like this are deeply healing for people who are reading them, especially if they've been through any level of this stuff, because, if nothing else, it's Hey, you're not alone in the world, and there's opportunities for you to get through it and for you to make progress, and for you to grow beyond it. And then there's inspirational figures to give you, kind of that Guiding Light of like, Hey, I could, I can just get this far, then I'll be out of the woods, and then my next phase of life, because that's kind of what Lee shows. I mean, you know, yeah, when you read the story, you'll see it more, but it, you know, she, she got past hard things and then started her new life. And it's inspiring, because so many people go through stuff, and when they're in those depressive, hard things in life, they can't see the forest through the trees. They can't see their way out of the thing. And so it's really important these kinds of stories to show people that. You know, there's a lot of versions of life and trauma and tragedy, but there are ways through for me, that was a big takeaway with a lot of this. One

58:08  
of the things I would, I would say to listeners, is that, you know, it's not what happens to you, it's what you do with what happens to you. Yeah, that's what Lee did. She really took it to another level, and she also, one of the things that helped her heal is she only she lived in the moment all the time. It was just that moment mattered. She didn't want to talk about yesterday or tomorrow ever. It was always that moment. And when I thought about it, you know, a lot of people just worry about yesterday or worry about tomorrow, and they never really enjoy the spirit of the moment, and she told us how to do that, but, but the fact that she did that, that that was her way of making up for lost time and for feeling and making like having the best life. I love that, yeah, the gregarious laugh the simplest things. And it was just amazing messages, just by her living in that moment all the time. I love

59:02  
that so much. Living in the moment is one of those things that a lot of people struggle with. You're right, and it's actually an antidote, in some sense, to mitigating depression and anxiety. It is. And so that must have been, that must have been quite a fight for her, in some sense, to live in a moment, very deliberate choice, given, you know, what you eventually discover about her life, that must have been quite a choice for her to live that way. But oddly enough, modeling it for you guys as well as you're kind of, you know, living with her and seeing it well, when

59:32  
I think about it, she wouldn't go anywhere without her crossword puzzles or her, you know, she'd always have something with her all the time, her apron, and because when, when she had idle time, she would keep her mind on that to be to keep her in the moment. Okay, because that project, or that puzzle like that's why she loved puzzles. She could do them for hours because she was just so immersed in that moment. Puzzles, it helped her not think about anything else. Yeah,

1:00:00  
she discovered her way to cope with the difficulties of life by learning to stay in a moment. And found out these coping mechanisms a lot of people don't, you know, some people just go to destructive things. Yeah, that's pretty constructive. I mean, you know, doing crossword puzzles, doing little things like that. I love that. I mean, a kind of modern version of that, which is probably not as good, unfortunately, as being on our phones and like playing games and stuff. Unfortunately, that kind of goes a little too far, I think, in this comparative. But I love that. I love that she was able to learn to be in the moment and be present with you, with you when you were a kid and with your siblings so much repair baseball, you know, oh yeah, in baseball, right? She totally yeah herself into the Cubs. Probably not a bigger Cubs fan in the world. Yes,

1:00:50  
it was the biggest cup fan ever. And but, you know, I always like what, what caused you to be like this? And I always wondered, you know, what, what, yeah. But I think that was her escape too. Yeah, because she did it so deeply. She knew every play and every she, she taught us how to keep score with all the symbols. And she had, she, she knew by heart, had their RBIs and how all their statistics, you know, especially Ernie Banks,

1:01:14  
yeah. So real quick question. And I mean, did the Cubs win the World Series recently? Yeah, were you, like, sobbing when they won the world?

1:01:24  
Oh, yes, our whole, I can't believe how many emails in Texas I got from, like, talking about Lee, yeah, people, all my friends, who knew Lee was this obsessed because she had, you know, I mean, friends would come to our house, knock on the door, and I thought they were visiting me. They were like, No, we're here to watch the game. But there were so many people that felt her spirit about the Cubs that happened, and that was wonderful things. When she was dying, she goes, you know, it might not happen in my lifetime, because obviously she was almost going to die and but it's probably it could happen in yours. If it does, will you put some of my ashes, you know, we still have yet to do that, but that's just, you know, legality things

1:02:05  
one step at a time, exactly, to come out first. Yeah,

1:02:11  
that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, Sandy, it's been lovely talking to you again today, and I actually enjoyed our first conversation quite a bit too. But it was lovely talking to you again today, discussing your story. I really hope our listeners can get this story, read it, and, you know, put good reviews out there, because it is a good story, and hopefully it's impacting people. I'm sure you've been getting good reviews. I read some of the reviews. They seem pretty good to me. People seem to be really impacted by the story. Yeah. And you know, maybe we'll get you on again, if the if you ever get a chance to get those ashes on.

1:02:47  
Thank you. I love being here, and thanks for asking me to come.

1:02:50  
Oh, you're welcome. It's

1:02:52  
good to talk to you. You too.

1:02:56  
Hey, thanks again for joining us on another episode of the voyage cast. If you want to get a hold of Sandra's book, please check the show notes. And if you want to check out her website, it should also be there as well. If you did like this episode, be sure to share it with your friends or family and leave us some positive reviews, because they do go a long way. Five stars, all the things. And you know what? Send me some comments too. I'll take all of them, hateful ones, good ones, anything in between. You, name it, send it my way. You